IF WE SHOULD THEY SHOULD!!!

[Wingnutx7]

I was made aware of this idea this morning and I agree. If congress is going to force us all to participate in a government run health care plan then congress should participate also.
Click on this link and go to middle of page to submit your vote:
http://fleming.house.gov/index.html (http://fleming.house.gov/index.html)

Jeff

[Sparky_Bill]

If congress is going to force us all to participate in a government run health care plan then congress should participate also.

Maybe I'm missing something here. I thought Congress DID have government run health care. So do all those gray hairs that are at the meetings bitching, it's called Medicare. Don't see them wanting to drop that. Then the Veterans have government run health care as well.

Then there is Sweden, Denmark, France, Norway, Germany, and Switzerland. They do not want to give it up either. I will admit that England and Canada plans could be made better but they all pay much less for that care than we do.

Universal health care is implemented in all industrialized countries, with the exception of the United States. It is also provided in many developing countries. We are the only country that pays a CEO $125,000,000 a year to deny you an operation. And that is just one guy at the top of one company. He does not provide you any care for that money. He just pockets the money.

Under all the plans on the table you will be able to still send your check to those CEO's and NOT the government, you will have a choice. Me I don't care, I will have my government health care plan before they can implement any of this.:BigLaugh:

[Wingnutx7]

If I had to I will go back to using my VA health care benefits (at least I have a priority classification so I get in faster).
But congress should be made to participate in the new plan instead of the lavish plan they have now that way they can suffer along with everyone. Maybe then they would develop a better plan.

The government plans overseas do have a draw back=my friends in the UK & Germany make a lot less because of their government plans. So what is better?

Jeff

[JoeGopher]

Congress people will not have the same coverage they are proposing for others:

Federal Employees Health Benefits Program

As soon as members of Congress are sworn in, they may participate in the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program (FEHBP). The program offers an assortment of health plans from which to choose, including fee-for-service, point-of-service, and health maintenance organizations (HMOs). In addition, Congress members can also insure their spouses and their dependents.

Not only does Congress get to choose from a wide range of plans, but there’s no waiting period. Unlike many Americans who must struggle against precondition clauses or are even denied coverage because of those preconditions, Senators and Representatives are covered no matter what - effective immediately.

And here’s the best part. The government pays up to 75 percent of the premium. That government, of course, is funded by taxpayers, the same taxpayers who often cannot afford health care themselves.

Read more: http://public-healthcare-issues.suite101.com/article.cfm/health_care_for_the_us_congress#ixzz0TG6LuiMY

Additionally:

And the Congressional perks don’t stop with the FEHBP. According to the article “Health care as good as Congress gets,” by John Barry, a staff writer for the St. Petersburg Times, “Members of Congress have their own pharmacy, right in the Capitol. They also have a team of doctors, technicians and nurses standing by in case something busts in a filibuster. They can get a physical exam, an X-ray or an electrocardiogram, without leaving work.”

Although members pay extra for these services - Representatives pay about $300 per month, and Senators about $600 - taxpayers end up kicking in another $2 million. That’s $2 million not being spent on those who need it.

Read more: http://public-healthcare-issues.suite101.com/article.cfm/health_care_for_the_us_congress#ixzz0TG6aTLh2


So while they have a government program for health insurance, they do not have a government run health care program.

Not trying to show bias either way, just pointing out some facts.

[RickJ]

So the solution is to make everyone in America a member of congress. :BigLaugh:

[Sparky_Bill]

Joe you have good insurance coverage with the comany you work for. So do you Jeff and you have even a back up. Me too guys, I have good insurance coverage. BUT I care about the guy who's wife was covered by the company he WORKED for but since he lost his job his wife got breast cancer and his Cobra is running out. And there are thousands like him.

Want facts? 45,000 in this great country of ours die each YEAR from the lack of insurance. The largest percentage of folks filing for bankruptcy was from medical bills and they HAVE insurance. Either of these cases could be you.

We have to do something. I want to leave this country better for my grandchildren then those around me have had lately.

If the weather would improve we could be typing about a ride. Think :natur008:

[JoeGopher]

Please know that I was just posting facts. I don't have enough knowledge about the issue, and what is available is spurious at best (45 million w/o insurance??? more like 10 Million).

The only thing I do know is if the bill as it stands passes, it will cost my company $245 million a year. We had a pre-tax profit of a little over $1B last year. After taxes, it was just around $600M which we use to fuel growth and pay shareholder dividends. Do you think we can just raise prices to cover that difference?

I don't know what the answer is, but I have a feeling it's somewhere between the current system and what is proposed. That, and I don't think the government can run it efficiently or effectively. Just look at the problems in cash for clunkers: Three months later and dealers are still owed hundreds of millions of dollars.

[Wingnutx7]

Starting to think mentioning politics is not good for thus RIDING forum.
But, my overall feeling is more people might have insurance if the costs were lower and under control. We have far too many frivolous lawsuits (mostly for people wanting to make a buck), greed by insurance companies and drug manufacturers, etc.
Controlling costs may make it easier to create a more acceptable plan.

I will simply trying to say that congress should participate in what they create (members of congress do not have the same medical plans we have or would be exposed to and that should end....think of those cost savings).

End of my political ranting.

Jeff

P.S. I agree Sparky, we could be typing about riding.

[Sparky_Bill]

I don't think the government can run it efficiently or effectively.

I hear that all the time. If that is the case then no one will buy the government plan and the insurance CEO's will be able to continue to get those absorbent salaries. But if the government can save us money then everyone will leave their present insurance companies and go with the government plan. The choice would be yours. Maybe the insurance companies will give us better coverage for our buck to compete with the government plan which will be better for us. With the plans allowing us to chose it seems to me a win, win win.

Like I said before, I will be getting a government plan before this can happen so I am about allowing those much younger than I to have a CHOICE.

[Chris 2]

My health insurance is good, but at what cost to me or my employer?
5.98 phrx 40=239.20 per week x 50=11,960$ per year,and thats not taking into consideration that that same hourly rate is taken out of all our overtime hours oh well enough said.

[Thumper]

Hey Wingie - I'm with you on this one.

Being an elected official should be an opportunity to SERVE your community. As such: the retirement and medical programs that they enact on behalf of the community should be the ones they, themselves recieve. All the benefits and all the vulnerabilities that the people who they represent recieve.

If the congress members interests are the same as the constituents - then I will have much greater faith in their designing a solid and just system.

I heard it described as eating their own cooking. :Cook:

Vote Nov 3.

[Swiffer]

Maybe I'm missing something here. I thought Congress DID have government run health care. So do all those gray hairs that are at the meetings bitching, it's called Medicare. Don't see them wanting to drop that. Then the Veterans have government run health care as well.

Then there is Sweden, Denmark, France, Norway, Germany, and Switzerland. They do not want to give it up either. I will admit that England and Canada plans could be made better but they all pay much less for that care than we do.

Universal health care is implemented in all industrialized countries, with the exception of the United States. It is also provided in many developing countries. We are the only country that pays a CEO $125,000,000 a year to deny you an operation. And that is just one guy at the top of one company. He does not provide you any care for that money. He just pockets the money.

Under all the plans on the table you will be able to still send your check to those CEO's and NOT the government, you will have a choice. Me I don't care, I will have my government health care plan before they can implement any of this.:BigLaugh:

You're absolutely right Bill, but you'll never, ever convince all these FOX news brainwashed individuals trying to sabotage anything that's good for the average American citizen. Best thing that could happen to this country is to shut that station down and stop all the bullshit lies from being spewed all over the air waves. I used to be a patriot...did my time in the service and all that. Right now I'm so sick of this country I truly would rather be a French or Canadian citizen where they know how to treat their people with some kind of respect. Health Care is a RIGHT, not a privelage.

Steveheadingbackontheroadtryingtogetbyandcan'taffo rdhealthcarethankyouverymuchyourepublicanscum.

[Wingnutx7]

We should have universal health care but pass something that is good for ALL Americans regardless of their condition, lifestyle choices should not be a factor (i.e. how much they weigh or previous conditions, etc).
Passing a bill for the sake of having control over voting conditions is wrong wrong wrong.

There should be no party lines in this debate. At current there are plenty of reasons for not passing this bill.
This should be fair across the board or do not pass it.
Why should I expect someone else to pay for my health care, plain and simple?
Why should I pay more if I do not choose to sit in a gym every waking minute?

I do not think Fox is the problem but shunning those that disagree is the problem. If this country was filled with nothing but YES men then there would be no progress.

There is always 2 sides to every story....

Jeff

[DEZ]

Health Care is a RIGHT, not a privelage.

B.S.

If God didn't give it to you (Life, Liberty and anything that you obtain with your life and liberty, which basically amounts to your legally obtained property), then it isn't a RIGHT.

If someone else has to do it for you, then it isn't a RIGHT.

If you can do it for yourself, and not step on anyone else's rights, then it is a RIGHT.

[Sparky_Bill]

If God didn't give it to you (Life, Liberty and anything that you obtain with your life and liberty, which basically amounts to your legally obtained property), then it isn't a RIGHT.

Now Mike THAT is the real B.S. here.

Where is God's name did you quote THAT from?

This is from OUR United States Declaration of Independence.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Now you tell me, how in God's name can a woman who has lost her job, thus her insurance, develops breast cancer, obtain Life. She according to what you wrote should just die.

Your writing condemns her to death, for what, because the economy went bad and she lost her job. This is not the principals this nation was founded upon.

Do you further believe that if your child was murdered no cop should be there to get you justice unless you pay for his service.

How about the highways you drive on, should they all be toll roads.

How about if your house was burning down and you called the fire department, should they present you a bill for those services?

I think the right to live is a basic right. The Congressman was right when he said, the GOP plan is for you to die and to die quickly.

I believe we are all God's creatures and I am willing to give so we all can live (Life) and have the ability to Pursue happiness, how about you?

God Bless America
Stand Beside HER
And guide HER

And that is what I am trying to do, guide her to a kinder, gentler more caring nation. A nation for all, young, old, sick and even the poor.

United we stand, divided we fall. We are a divided nation now more than ever before. I only hope to see us come together as one. That is what made this nation great. That is what our founding fathers wrote.

Take the time to go out and read the United States Declaration of Independence. The Bill of Rights and the U.S. Constitution. It's about the PEOPLE.

God Bless Us All

Bill

P.S. Harvard did a study this past year and determined that 45,000 AMERICANS die each year because of the lack of insurance. 45,000 per year in this rich nation. That sir is what is not "RIGHT", it's not right. It's sad.

[Swiffer]

B.S.

If God didn't give it to you (Life, Liberty and anything that you obtain with your life and liberty, which basically amounts to your legally obtained property), then it isn't a RIGHT.

If someone else has to do it for you, then it isn't a RIGHT.

If you can do it for yourself, and not step on anyone else's rights, then it is a RIGHT.


There you go...this thinking is the typical right wing religious fanatic crap that has gotten us where we are today. I bet you voted for G. Bush too...TWICE. Thanks for Fng up the Country there Bro.

Steve

[Wingnutx7]

Another thing to consider and we keep hearing (albeit very little in detail) is controlling costs.
I am sure we have all seen this.....we see our insurance companies replying to hospital and doctors' claim stating they (insurance company) paid at a lower because they state the doctor/facility cost exceed the "normal/reasonable charge for this procedure".
Funny, congress talks about controlling costs and dealing with the insurance companies, how about also asking the facilities and doctors to control costs and take a hit for "We the People" and lower their costs and should we mention the medical manufacturing community to control their costs as well.

Health care is available to everyone American, some simply can't afford it.
Truly work on bringing the costs down, then look at how many more Americans elect to get medical insurance....after that see who is still missing out.

Sparky, I know what you are saying but when you seriously ask all Americans, how many are willing to pay higher taxes and that this universal health care may mean you are sicker longer. I have friends overseas and do not hear too many good things about their universal healthcare.
Put together real reform on healthcare, controlling costs, eliminate wasteful government spending and then I would gladly pay more taxes if it helps.

I am not a ???????? or ?????????? but both parties are a crock. We now what problems we had with Bush but now Dems are spending like mad and trying to get a much passed because they have voting control but are they really passing GOOD bills that are good for all Americans (not when I hear things like giving money for studying pig odor in Iowa...things are still out of a hand and you can't blame Bush now).

Off my soap box....

P.S. How about eliminating all political parties?
Can we just talk about motorcycles now?

:)

Jeff

[Thumper]

Mike - it's YOU who's fng up the couuntry? Please stop. Oh, and only vote once, please. Voting twice is only acceptable in Chicago and certain other 3rd world countries. But seriously, Mike, I think you've got your definition of right wrong.

Swiff - Let's debate RIGHTS It's a right in the constitution to vote. Even to vote for whoever you want.

If I may quote from the Random House American Dictionary:
18. a just claim or title, whether legal, prescriptive, or moral: You have a right to say what you please.
19. Sometimes, rights. that which is due to anyone by just claim, legal guarantees, moral principles, etc.: women's rights; Freedom of speech is a right of all Americans.

So, in your opinion, healthcare may be a right. A moral right. That is certainly a valid opinion, worth discussing. But, is it an American or Constitutional right?

Sparky makes a great point when he quotes the Declaration of Independance proclaimation that all people have the right of Life. That seems like common sense. In order to be alive, you must have life. The tennants of almost all countries forbid murder. But, does that right to Life apply to the right to have free healthcare? Or, does that right to life indicate access to healthcare regardless of race, creed, gender, color, etc.... Access as in availability, ability to purchase. Conventional wisdom favors the later. In order to achieve the former, I think it would require an admendment to the constitution - requiring ratification my all 50 states at a 2/3rds majority of popular vote. Something not easily accomplished.

I look forward to reading your thoughts on this topic. And, in English please, not French.

Sparky - intresting Harvard study. Exactly how do people die from lack of health insurance? The elderly (including you) have Medicare (gotcha), correct? Isn't there already a government program in place for the poor, called Medical Assistance (or MedicAid)? ... and, as I recall, you don't actually need medical insurance for medical treatment. To me, the statistics you quote indicate more of an inditment of health care providers than insurance.

Also, Sparky, I have to point out some hypocracy here... you state that you want to see our nation come together, but prior to that you state that you believe the GOP wants people to die quickly. Isn't that counterproductive to your goal of a more united country?

- - -

Finally, to get back to Jeff's original thread... does anyone think that if Universal Healthcare passes, that Congress should still have their own healthcare plan?

[Wingnutx7]

Thanks Rick.

Everyone might be interested in watching this recording of a recent debate in congress, he may be a ?????????? but his message raises concern:

Click here (http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=G44NCvNDLfc).

Jeff

[Sparky_Bill]

Sparky - intresting Harvard study. Exactly how do people die from lack of health insurance?

This is from the study:
The Harvard study found that people without health insurance had a 40 percent higher risk of death than those with private health insurance — as a result of being unable to obtain necessary medical care. The risk appears to have increased since 1993, when a similar study found the risk of death was 25 percent greater for the uninsured.

The increase in risk, according to the study, is likely to be a result of at least two factors. One is the greater difficulty the uninsured have today in finding care, as public hospitals have closed or cut back on services. The other is improvements in medical care for insured people with treatable chronic conditions like high blood pressure.

I heard about the woman who did not have insurance nor the funds to pay for treatment after being told she had breast cancer. Yes when real sick she could go into a hospital for emergency care but could not get kemo or any on going treatment.

So when I say that those that deny this change in health care like the rest of the industrialized nations have, they are condemning these people to death just cause they were born too poor. They work 40 hours a week but their labor does not provide enough to continue to live. So their lives must be worth less then ours!

I believe the idea of the public option is to cut the over the top profits the insurance companies have been making all these last decades. If the government can't do it cheaper cause they are such foul up then the insurance companies have nothing to worry about. But on the other hand the government does well, then the insurance companies are going to have to give us all a break.

When I ask that this country comes together, I am talking about coming together for the people and not for the corporations that are paying off the politician on both sides.

[DEZ]

Now Mike THAT is the real B.S. here.

Where is God's name did you quote THAT from?

This is from OUR United States Declaration of Independence.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Now you tell me, how in God's name can a woman who has lost her job, thus her insurance, develops breast cancer, obtain Life. She according to what you wrote should just die.

LIFE and HEALTHCARE are not the same. If I kill her, I have violated her right to life. If I don't treat her cancer, I have not killed her. In order to force me to provide healthcare for her (or pay for it if I'm not a medical professional), my liberty must be violated.

That does not preclude me from choosing to help her, but government is crowding out many of the institutions that would be there to help her in her circumstances. Compassion is an individual virtue, not a government policy.

Your writing condemns her to death, for what, because the economy went bad and she lost her job. This is not the principals this nation was founded upon.

Not it doesn't. It just means that she has no right to force me to help her. That does not mean that she will not be helped.

Do you further believe that if your child was murdered no cop should be there to get you justice unless you pay for his service.

One of the purposes of government is to secure our rights. The hypothetical murderer of my child violated his right to life, and therefore should be brought to justice.

How about the highways you drive on, should they all be toll roads.

Perhaps. Or at least paid for by some sort of user fees. Gas taxes seem like a pretty good way to do that, if they can keep their hands off of that money for building things like nice choo choo trains that have no chance of paying for themselves without subsidies.

How about if your house was burning down and you called the fire department, should they present you a bill for those services?

I'm pretty sure they do . . . it's called property taxes. But then that is local government. We're talking about the Federal government and the Federal constitution here. And no, it is not my right to have them come and save my house from burning to the ground.

I believe we are all God's creatures and I am willing to give so we all can live (Life) and have the ability to Pursue happiness, how about you?

I'm willing to give too. I just want to be the one to decide when and where I give (and I do give . . . of course, I could give more if I weren't having so much money pissed away by Washington -- both parties, for that matter).


God Bless America
Stand Beside HER
And guide HER

And that is what I am trying to do, guide her to a kinder, gentler more caring nation. A nation for all, young, old, sick and even the poor.

Caring to me seems to be the sort of thing an indivual ought to bring themself to do, and not have it forced on them by the government. I mean, just how virtuous is forced charity?

United we stand, divided we fall. We are a divided nation now more than ever before. I only hope to see us come together as one. That is what made this nation great. That is what our founding fathers wrote.

Take the time to go out and read the United States Declaration of Independence. The Bill of Rights and the U.S. Constitution. It's about the PEOPLE.

Actually, what made this nation great, and what the Declaration and Constitution put in place, is that this was truly the first real attempt at true freedom. Look how far that has gotten us in only 200 years. Miles ahead of the rest of the world!

God Bless Us All

Bill

No argument there.

P.S. Harvard did a study this past year and determined that 45,000 AMERICANS die each year because of the lack of insurance. 45,000 per year in this rich nation. That sir is what is not "RIGHT", it's not right. It's sad.

I'm guessing they died from some sort of disease. I've actually never seen a coroner fill out a cause of death as "lack of insurance".

I'm also willing to bet that the number skyrockets under universal healthcare. It may not be a perfect system, and it probably can be improved. But it is still the best in the world.

[Sparky_Bill]

LIFE and HEALTHCARE are not the same. If I kill her, I have violated her right to life. If I don't treat her cancer, I have not killed her. .

Nope you did not KILL HER, hope that makes you feel better about letting her die, cause she is dead now cause you do not want to help, her and 45,000 others. (BTW try reading the Harvard report before dismissing it)

If you come along to an accident along side the road and you find a woman bleeding and just stand there and watch cause you don't want to waste your minutes or get your good cloths all bloody. You did not KILL her either. But come almighty judgment day you will have some explaining to do. Why is it that it's the religious right that does not want to lift a finger to help those less fortunate?

In either case there is a lose of LIFE. Maybe that LIFE is worth less cause they make less money in a day.

For 45,000 American every YEAR that denial of healthcare which you say is not life, caused their LIFE to cease.

It IS governments roll to protect it's citizens. Be it police, our armies or firemen and yes our health care, they are about American lives.

[DEZ]

There you go . . . putting words in my mouth.

I didn't say she should be let to die. I just said that she doesn't have a right to force me to help. The fact that I have a moral obligation to do what I can to help her is up to me, and is between me and whatever higher moral authority I happen to believe in (be it God, or the greater good of the collective, or our mother the earth).

Again, I see us confusing what is good, and the right thing to do (voluntarily) with what is a right, and what I ought to have the government do under the force of law.

[Sparky_Bill]

There you go . . . putting words in my mouth.

I didn't say she should be let to die. I just said that she doesn't have a right to force me to help. The fact that I have a moral obligation to do what I can to help her is up to me, and is between me and whatever higher moral authority I happen to believe in (be it God, or the greater good of the collective, or our mother the earth).

Again, I see us confusing what is good, and the right thing to do (voluntarily) with what is a right, and what I ought to have the government do under the force of law.

Actions speak louder than words. You did say that you did not want to help her thus by that action you are saying it's her problem, let her die.

You say you want it to be voluntary and I say that she and all the others will die cause no one will lift a finger. How many operations for others have you offered to pay for lately? I am going to be greatly surprised and if you have you might be such a small minority you will be noticed by that "higher moral authority". BUT if my life depended upon you or others like you to save my life, I will bet on the government any day.

[DEZ]

Welcome to Socialism . . .

[Sparky_Bill]

Welcome to Socialism . . .

Well Mike if the following are "Socialism to you:
Social Security
MediCare
Environmental Laws
A strong Public Heathcare option

Then Mike I like your definition of "Socialism".

Now let's go riding Sunday.

[DEZ]

Social Security
Unfortunately, soon to be bankrupt . . .
MediCare
Also coming up on bankruptcy. Plus, it pays doctors at less than cost in most areas.
Environmental Laws
I've got no problems with the ones against real pollution, but this crap about carbon dioxide and global warming is yet another load of B.S.
A strong Public Heathcare option
Given the track record of the above, as well as everywhere else in the world, the prospects of this actually working don't look so good. You may be ready to mortgage your children and grandchildren's futures, but I'm not.

At worse, it should be States that try these things out. That way, if your's really hoses it up, you can at least move to another state. At the Federal level, what're you going to do? Move to Canada?! (sorry Rotten Johnny . . . no offense intended).
Now let's go riding Sunday.

Hmmmm . . . now there's an idea . . . :biker13:

[Wingnutx7]

Just got this in:
HR 615

On Tuesday, the Senate health committee voted 12-11 in favor of a two-page amendment, courtesy of ?????????? Tom Coburn which would require all Members of Congress and their staff members to enroll in any new government-run health plan.

Congressman John Fleming has proposed an amendment that would require Congressmen and Senators to take the same health care plan that they would force on us. (Under proposed legislation they are exempt)

Congressman Fleming is encouraging people to go to his Website and sign his petition. The process is very simple. I have done just that at: http://fleming.house.gov/index.html

Senator Coburn and Congressman Fleming are both physicians. Regardless of your political beliefs, it sure seems reasonable that Congress should have exactly the same medical coverage that they impose on the rest of us.

Now hopefully this will help make the politicians really use their melons for the good of all Americans (they will sink or swim along with us).

Now I am done with this.
Jeff

[Sparky_Bill]

[B]would require Congressmen and Senators to take the same health care plan that they would force on us.

Jeff I don't know if these are your words or you are quoting someone. BUT either way it is the right wing view that they can not or pretend that they can not understand the meaning of OPTION as in "public option". No one on the left is forcing you or anybody else to take the "public option". The plan is by offering a "public option" the insurance companies will have competition for a plan that takes 30 cent from ever dollar you invest in health care coverage. I am confident that you will keep your present insurance but will benefit as your rates go down to compete with that "public option" that you so fear.

Now to repute and earlier charge that heath care is not a right.

In a 1976 U.S. Supreme Court ruling they concluded that PRISONERS have a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to good health care and that denying it would constitute cruel and unusual punishment in violation of the Eighth Amendment.

Therefore if health care is a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT for a murder than who the hell can say your law abiding neighbor who lost his job and health care is not afforded that same RIGHT.

How cruel and un-Christian is the right-wing position on this matter. I just shake my head that they are willing to treat killer better than there fellow citizens. Very cold and uncaring!!!

[Wingnutx7]

Sparky
When I posted that recent item I only wanted to show that some politicians are actually thinking in the right direction by stating they should have to participate in the plan they create.....is there anything wrong with that?

FYI-that verbiage was from a message I received that reported about what Congressman John Fleming suggested.

Jeff

[Thumper]

Very cool, Jeff. I hope this gets traction.
12 vs 11 vote . . . those members of congress sure don't want to have to eat their own dawg food and give up their preferential treatment, do they?

I followed the link, but didn't find the online petition. Let me know if I just didn't find it and it's still out there, cuz I'd like to sign it.

[Wingnutx7]

Thumper
I found same, probably removed due ran it course some time ago.
I know it ran earlier because I filled it in. This is second time this congressman pushed it in congress but this time it is register as HR615.
Another one of those "do as I say not as I do".....or "practice what you preach".....you name it.

I can't wait to get healed and go riding...

Jeff